posted March 12, 2003 11:26 PM               

I mean, imagine us going back in time and bringing — I don't know who — Billy the Kid, maybe, into the present to help you clear out the drug dealers from our neighborhood.

Fine. Some drop like flies, the others flee, and the neighborhood is safe again. We send Wyatt back with our thanks (and probably a pledge from him not to tell anybody in the past about it — history books say nothing about Billy going insane and babbling about traveling to the 21st century).

That makes one good story.

But then we start bringing him back every month to share more adventures, some dangerous. Do we worry about him? Nah. We know he lives to a ripe old age. And wouldn't that affect out attitude to him? "Hey, Billy! Those guys have Uzi's. How about you running out there and taking them out. History says you don't die today."

And how about if he keeps coming back year after year, and eventually he comes from a time very near the time he will die? It would be rough actually sending him back to his doom. And when he talks about his pal Pat Garrett (the lawman who finally killed The Kid) what the heck do we say?

You get the point, I hope, of my allegory pertaining to the pre-Crisis Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes.

How could these guys become such good friends with Superboy and then just stand by when he leaves for Smallville again, if this time he's going back just before Ma & Pa Kent die? Brrrr!

Remember in the Supergirl archive the story where Supergirl's existence is revealed to the world? In the future, the Legion removes a lead plate from in front of a bust of Supergirl which reads "Revealed to the Earth – 1962" or something like that.

I mean, how many statues must they have with lead plates covering other salient historical dates, like the dates Superboy and Supergirl die?

I remember Alan Moore's two-part story "Whatever Happened to the Man of Steel?" in which Moore, to end the old era, basically ritually murdered the entire "Superman Family." Some Legionaires arrive just before Superman's big confrontation with the villains. They exchange greeting, give Superman a token of their friendship, then hop back in their time bubble and return to the future. Superman tells Supergirl that he got the impression that the Legion had just come to say goodbye.

It was a poignant moment that was both touching and creepy.

Am I rambling, or does this make sense to anyone? The foreknowlege of Superboy's life and the Legion's inability to do anything about any tragedies therein, plus Superboy's knowing that they know...

Well, I think it makes for a weird relationship. Anyone have any thoughts?

posted March 13, 2003 02:12 AM            

Not to mention Superman seeing a Supergirl from the past (who happened to be visiting the Legion in the future) shortly after she had died in Crisis!

posted March 13, 2003 03:21 AM            

Perhaps, somewhere in 30th century Metropolis, there is a statue of Superboy, (probably Superman, really), that the Legionnaires saw. Realizing how much this historic figure has inspired them, they jokingly wish that he could join their new team. Wait a minute...it doesn't have to be a joke. We have a time machine! We can go back in time, find Superboy and bring him back here!

And that was probably all the thinking that went into it. They were just children at the time, you know. So they go back in time, bring Superboy back and ask him to join their Legion. (Actually, some feel that they asked Supergirl first, but since she couldn't get in, they asked Superboy, but that's another thread). So Superboy joins the Legion. And suddenly they're aware that they know all about this person's future, and his fate. Creepy, indeed.

Before they met him, Superboy was just a legend to them--an icon. He had no personality or presence. He was barely more than a fairy tale to them. Then suddenly, he's alive, aware and one of them. They start to double-think the logic of having him join, but by then it's too late. He's their friend.

But it's never been established exactly what the Legion knew of Superman's destiny. They repeatedly stated that a lot of historic records were destroyed in the intervening 1000 years, due to war and carelessness. Even in Alan Moore's story, they seemed none too sure about what was going to happen. They kinda sorta thought that Superman might be about to die, but there was a fair amount of uncertainly, (and with good reason, since Superman did not die in that story. The world just thought he did).

posted March 13, 2003 03:41 AM            

To put the shoe on the other foot, we know that the adult Superman often traveled a little ahead into the future to meet with the adult Legionnaires. He also worked with the teenage Legionnaires a few times, but never told them what he knew of their future, who they would marry, the fact that Shadow Woman would die, etc.

posted March 13, 2003 06:43 AM            

He briefly left the Legion after he crashed into a Superman museum recounting how his parents had died. He didn't want to forget that knowledge and the Legion didn't want to torment him by always bringing him back to remember it.

Eventually, the editors (and probably sales) showed that Superboy belonged in the Legion so he was brought back and made to forget his parents' fate entirely.

posted March 13, 2003 02:12 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Owen Cardiff Darcy:
In one of the earliest Legion appearances -- "The Army of Living Kryptonite Men" in Superboy #86 -- Lightning Lad shows up at the last minute to destroy the Kryptonite Men, thus saving Superboy's life.

---

The same story also showed that had Lightning Lad done nothing, a bunch of meteors would have destroyed the Kryptonite Men, thus also saving Superboy. They went out of their way to show that Lightning Lad did not interfere with history.

posted March 13, 2003 02:26 PM            

What would have to happen for every single person on the planet to have no knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy? So all the records are wiped? What...? Paper records? Computer records? People's minds???

Every reference to this turning point in history is erased? How? Every mention in every book or text, every clip on every videotape in every news vault in the world? How would people forget? My father would tell me about Kennedy. I would tell my children.

And how much more significant would Superman's death be compared to an American president's?

"Dad, who was Superman?"
"Where did he go?"
"What happened to him?"

I don't buy it. People will always know exactly what happened to Superman, especially his friends in the future.

posted March 13, 2003 02:58 PM            

A thousand years is a long time for fact and fiction to be thoroughly confused, especially if there is a period of great crisis where human memory is the chief repository of history. Granted, it is unlikely for history as we know it to be completely lost, given a global civilization and the ubiquity of hard copy. But it isn't impossible.

posted March 13, 2003 03:38 PM               

Maybe a better example would be King Arthur. Archeologists are now starting to think that there was a king named ArthUR around 500 AD in early medival England. He seems to have been a great warrior who ruled quite a large chunk of territory for the time. It seems that when, about 1000 years later, the first Arthurian legends were being written, legends of his exploits had evolved a very complex love triangle, including his death and the lady of the lake. Now, there is no evidence for any of this, and I'm sure much of it is mere folk tale. We don't really know how or when or where the historical Arthrur died. It's certianly possible something like this could have happened with Superman.

posted March 13, 2003 04:05 PM            

Don't forget that with Arthur, you're talking about a time when royalty and priests could read, and hardly anyone else, and where most families never travelled twenty miles from their own village.

posted March 13, 2003 05:02 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Corrosive Kid:
The same story also showed that had Lightning Lad done nothing, a bunch of meteors would have destroyed the Kryptonite Men, thus also saving Superboy. They went out of their way to show that Lightning Lad did not interfere with history.

---

posted March 13, 2003 05:27 PM               

I can't cite particular stories or issues, but I do remember panels showing Saturn Girl or somebody choking back a tear as Superboy headed back to his time--with a thought balloon something like "Poor Superboy! He doesn't know that he'll be orphaned AGAIN!" So there WAS some of that weirdness of them knowing more than they felt like admitting to him. But, then, too, even if they HAD admitted some information, Saturn Girl would just wipe it from his mind to relieve his suffering. And, as noted by another poster, their was the famous mental block to make him forget while in his own time information learned in the future--so he could be on a team with Supergirl in the 30th Century, but in the 20th Century have no knowledge of her existence until she arrived on Earth.

posted March 13, 2003 05:45 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aldous:
Don't forget that with Arthur, you're talking about a time when royalty and priests could read, and hardly anyone else, and where most families never travelled twenty miles from their own village.

---

Not even royalty, necesarily - Charlemagne never managed to learn how to read or write, though he did try. And not even all the priesthood were all that literate - some historical accounts suggest that an awful lot of them could barely stumble through the litanies by rote.

Some Arthurian legends mention a "King Claudas" who conquered France, battled Arthur early in his reign, and was illiterate. Exactly who the writers were thinking of is an open question at this point, but he sounds sort of like a composite of Clovis (who actually lived around the right time period) and Charlemagne (who was, obviously, several centuries later but much better known).

posted March 13, 2003 07:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aldous:
But yes, I can see that it's not a black or white thing with Superman. I don't believe knowledge of Kennedy's assassination (date and location) could ever be lost, but with Superman the facts might never have been known. (Flew into a Kryptonite meteor swarm in space...? Who'd ever know? Yet, even then, the other "super" heroes would soon find out what had happened to Superman. Superman could never just "disappear". Once any significant fact is published, it's duplicated in many millions of locations.)

---

posted March 13, 2003 08:40 PM            

When the Trapper is finally mentioned, it's almost as if he's already been around--the chroniclers of these adventure comics, have just not bothered to discuss him.

So I assume there is an encounter with the Trapper which leads the Legion into travelling through time. And maybe this wasn't actually approved by the United Planets (I gather there were lots of laws prohibiting time travel, and an upstart teenage superhero club was probably not allowed to access that technology--this ties in with the Legion having access to all kinds of advanced, potentially universe-destroying technology--how did they get access to all that?).

Only, there are very few pockets in time that the Legion can actually get to--and one of those is Superboy's time.

I also assume that Superboy didn't travel back in time that often, once he was in the 30th Century--only in those stories where he's actually shown travelling back in time. So he spent weeks in the 30th Century, living out of his rooms in the clubhouse, dating, reading, meeting new friends,participating in adventures, exploring the future universe. And then he went back to the very minute in the past after he had left--and didn't remember very much because of the post-hypnotic suggestion in his brain.

posted March 13, 2003 08:44 PM               

To return to Old Dude's original point, yes, it is weird that the Legion would make friends with two people whose future they knew. Whether or not they knew the events of Superman's death, they certainly knew about Supergirl's death (as shown in an LSH/CRISIS crossover). This means that Brainiac 5 knew along what was going to happen to her. But he probably never expected to fall in love with her.

A related question is how could Superboy and Supergirl spend all that time in the future and NOT be curious about what would happen to them or their friends? Yes, it's true that they forgot everything they learned about their future (or at least Kal did; we're not sure about Kara) when they returned to the past. But they must have remembered such revelations every time they returned to the future. (Otherwise, the Legionnaires would have to explain to Superboy for the umpteenth time *how* they defeated Computo. They found an antimatter device in the long deserted Batcave, but Superboy forgot this fact when he returned to his own time.) How come Superboy wasn't tempted to find out what happened to his foster parents, or Lana, or Pete, or himself? How come Supergirl was never curious about how she would die?

posted March 13, 2003 10:28 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by He Who Wanders:
Whether or not they knew the events of Superman's death, they certainly knew about Supergirl's death (as shown in an LSH/CRISIS crossover). This means that Brainiac 5 knew along what was going to happen to her. But he probably never expected to fall in love with her.

---

I don't recall the specific cross-over, but logically, the Legion couldn't have known Supergirl would die during the Crisis. The Crisis affected all points in time and space more or less equally. Meaning, every person ever born, on every planet that ever existed, experienced the Crisis at every minute of their entire life. The Crisis changed all of history, ever single minute of it. We saw parademons and white walls and red skys in snapshots throughout history. One can infer that these features were present at all times, and therefore the Crisis happened at all times. Unless there was some remarkable coincidence, Supergirl died at a time other than history stated, and the Legion should have been just as surprised as Superman.

posted March 13, 2003 11:16 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by KryptoSuperDog:
What I'm saying is that the Legion didn't know as much about Superman's "death" as we might believe. If you take that 2-part Alan Moore story as fact, (and I will for argument's sake), then this is what happened: Superman had his final battle with Mr. Mxyzptlk, he took the gold kryptonite, and probably he and the JLA covered the whole incident up, telling the world that Superman had died. In truth, he lost his powers, ending his career, disguised himself, married Lois and had a baby. Because of the coverup, the historical records would have been wrong, at best, obscuring those events terribly by the Legion's time.

---

Yes. I see what you mean.

The Legion (and anyone else in the 30th Century) would know a lot about the "death" (or, time of disappearance) of Superman, simply because they would probably know of any world-shattering exploits of his, historically.

"Well, Superman is alive at this time, this time, and... this time."

They would know the times he had NOT died. The Legion wouldn't necessarily know when or how Superman died... But they knew there was a Superman. So, as Old Dude, Stan Brown and you have touched on, the people of the 30th Century may know a lot about what's coming up in Superboy's future, but they would know for certain that he is not ever going to die as Superboy. One historical record in the 30th Century of a "Superman" exploit means Superboy will not die on any mission, ever.

But moving on --

When they requested Superboy's help, did they ALWAYS contact the SAME Superboy, eg. the Superboy of 12 March 1966 at 3:42pm?? That's a very important question for me. I don't have a lot of Legion comics so I don't know if that matter was ever addressed.

When Saturn Girl is sad that Superboy is about to lose his foster parents (or whatever the heck was about to happen AFTER Superboy left for the 20th Century), she should perhaps(?) be just as sad EVERY DARN TIME they meet with Superboy in the 30th Century, because he must be the SAME Superboy from the same MOMENT in time. So, after Superboy's 15th visit to the 30th Century, surely Saturn Girl will think, "Well, I don't feel sad any more, because I have felt this emotion 14 times before and I have dealt with it!"

The Legion is moving through time, as you do, but Superboy would not be. He returns to the 20th Century at the moment he left! Time for him has not moved on. He is pulled from the 20th Century on 12 March 1966 at 3:42:01pm and returns to the 20th Century at a fraction of an instant after 3:42:01pm -- certainly nowhere near 3:42:02pm.

Despite the "mental block" and whatever it's supposed to "erase" from his mind, does he have a bunch of memories lasting several weeks or months (as suggested by India's post, and India usually knows what he's talking about), which actually took the instant between 3:42:01 and 3:42:02 to accumulate?

No. When he returns to the 20th Century his mind must be COMPLETELY IGNORANT of the existence of the 30th Century world. Like Hal Jordan in the 58th Century stories by John Broome, Superboy cannot remember anything at all.

What's the alternative?

"Funny -- the last 14 times I've left the 30th Century, Saturn Girl has been crying as if for an impending disaster!"

or

"Funny -- with all the upheaval when Ma and Pa died, something slipped my mind. When I came home to find them dying, just before I left I noticed Saturn Girl crying, as if already in mourning... she knew! What else does the Legion know? Of course, they know everything that will happen! They KNEW Ma and Pa were about to get sick and die -- and the @#$%& didn't warn me!! If they'd told me, I might have been able to save them!"

or

"But hang on -- I can't change the past! I could never have saved Ma and Pa! But -- then how come I can change the Legion's past? For surely that's what I'm doing -- by venturing out of my own time to interfere in theirs! Everything becomes the PAST merely by time-travelling a little further into the FUTURE!"